Debate of the Paranoid Kind

It seems surreal these days to debate with people who say the sky is red and the earth is flat but unfortunately that's what many debates have been reduced to these days.
Since this "debate" was done via email and not public, I will not publish the other persons full name.

ML- October 16th.:

Criticism Mounts Over State Envoy

Jewish leaders slam appointment of anti-Israel envoy to OSCE conference

Jewish leaders expressed outrage Friday over the State Department’s praise for, and defense of, a controversial Muslim leader who has defended terrorist groups and suggested that Israel may have been responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Salam al-Marayati, founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), was picked to represent the United States government at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s (OSCE) annual 10-day human rights conference, the Human Dimension Implementation Meetings (HDIM).   Al-Marayati’s well-known anti-Israel bona fides prompted Jewish leaders and others to express outrage over the Obama administration’s selection.  “It is regrettable that someone with such distorted, conspiratorial views—even with a lackluster apology—is delegated by our government to represent our country abroad,” the Anti-Defamation League said in a statement to the Free Beacon.

Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, argued that the State Department is showing inconsistency by touting an individual who has defended the militant groups Hezbollah and Hamas, both of which are designated by the U.S. as terrorist organizations.

“One would assume that individuals selected to represent the United States at an international human rights conclave would share our government’s longstanding policy that Hamas and Hezbollah are dangerous terrorist organizations,” Cooper told the Free Beacon. “But Mr. Salam al-Marayati and his organization are long-time advocates that these deadly terror groups be removed from the U.S. terrorist list.”

“With terrorism continuing to roil the Middle East,” Cooper added, “the question is why the U.S. State Department would say he is ‘highly credible’?”

Josh Block, a former Clinton administration official who now serves as CEO of The Israel Project, said the State Department’s defense of al-Marayati lacks credibility.  “That statement, defending a person who is clearly a terrorist sympathizer and deeply hostile to Israel, calls into question the credibility of the person who gave it, and it raises a very serious question: What exactly is the U.S. government saying here?” Block asked.

“It is inexplicable and deeply concerning that a person who has suggested Israel was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and advocated for terrorist organizations including Hamas and Hezbollah, which has killed more Americans than any terrorist group except al Qaeda, would be described as ‘valued’ and ‘highly credible’ by our government,” Block said.

The State Department, however, defended  al-Marayati’s participation, calling him “valued and highly credible.”

“Mr. al-Marayati has been involved in U.S. government initiatives for almost 10 years and has been a valued and highly credible interlocutor on issues affecting Muslim communities,” a spokesman for the U.S. Mission to the OSCE told the Free Beacon Thursday in a statement. “He was invited to participate in this year’s HDIM as a reflection of the wide diversity of backgrounds of the American people.”

Al-Marayati was criticized by pro-Israel leaders when he recommended that the U.S. “put the state of Israel on the [9/11] suspect list,” according to the New York Times.

“If we’re going to look at suspects, we should look to the groups that benefit the most from these kinds of incidents, and I think we should put the state of Israel on the suspect list because I think this diverts attention from what’s happening in the Palestinian territories so that they can go on with their aggression and occupation and apartheid policies,” al-Marayati told a radio host, according to the Times.

The U.S. Embassies in Poland and Brussels had commended al-Marayati’s participation in the human rights forum, according to statements on their respective websites.

MPAC, the organization al-Marayati helped create, has been condemned by Jewish groups for promoting false articles claiming that Israel harvests Palestinian organs, the latest iteration of a centuries-old anti-Semitic blood libel.

  

Me October 17th:

Wow! You have me and Levi together. I'm flattered. THE two liberals (I don't mean to speak for you Levi) at YIH! LOL
OK I can't defend the State Dept. for this selection. al-Marayati is not someone that I, or anyone else in our circles would obviously have chosen.

That being said, you mentioned that this was the straw that broke the camel's back regarding Obama. Really? Be honest. Do you honestly think Obama had ANY involvement in this selection? An envoy to an OSCE conference is not exactly an appointment to the Supreme Court. Come on!

Does the buck stop with the Commander in Chief? Yes. But lets keep the hyperbole in check and at least admit that its a dubious claim that Obama had anything to do with this selection other than having some stupid underlings. Six degrees of separation is not an indictment of one's beliefs. 

This was a State Department selection. I grew up with Carter, Reagan, Bush...and have always found in my own research/learning that the State Department has never been a friend of Israel. The State Department, under Republican and Democratic administrations alike has always acted like a French organization within the U.S. government, whoring themselves out to the highest bidder, repeatedly to Israel's detriment. 

If you still think Obama was intimately involved in this selection to an almost unheard of conference (yes, at least by me. hahah walked into that one), then what did you think when President Bush was bowing to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia? You must have been really pissed when he was walking and holding hands with him. You must have been apoplectic when he kissed him! 

In true Democratic form, I will criticize the left or right when I see an injustice. I see the Republican's 11th commandment (thou shall not speak ill of another Republican), made famous but not authored by Reagan (everyone makes that mistake) as totally immoral. It reeks of, and breeds, hypocrisy, inconsistency, apathy and ignorance.  

I always do my best to be consistent in my criticisms of politicians and my political beliefs in particular. I can't tolerate hypocrisy or cherry picking of information in order to make a point. The former reveals ones stupidity and the latter insults the intelligence of the other debater.  I understand how politics works and therefore agree with the Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get What You Want! There's no reason for me to believe that Obama was involved in this selection or got what he wanted with al-Marayati's selection.

That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Me - October 17th continued:

lol. I'm a Dennis Miller fan. Or at least I was one. I should have started off with "now I don't want to get off on a rant here but..."

You gave me the camel line about a week ago in shul regarding the al-Marayati selection. Oh well. 2009, 2012. Out is out.

Does that mean you voted for Obama over McCain in 2008? I thought you said you were a social conservative.

ML - October 17th

Sorry, you are mixing up Obama's Islamists…

I gave you that line about Arif Alikhanas, the Hezbolah sympathizer that Obama appointed to Homeland Security.

I just learned about al-Marayati yesterday.

Please get your Obama Muslim Extremist appointments straight!!!!!!!!!!!!  I understand its tough, with so many of them.  

Me - October 17th

oh right! I knew something sounded wrong. I did remember you said something about DHS. Well regarding that appointment, as I said in shul I don't ascribe to guilt by association. I've done a little looking around and I can't find many quotes directly from him vis-a-vis Israel or Hizbollah or Palestinians. So it appears to me that this is just slamming Obama for appointing a Muslim.
http://factcheck.org/2010/11/muslims-appointed-to-homeland-security/

I'm no Islamic sympathizer but I would say the fact that someone is a Muslim does not in and of itself make them dangerous. Even Bush '43 says so, so it must be true! LOL!! Here's a speech he gave right after 9/11 (I'm sure you felt the same way I did when this happened)
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/gen.bush.muslim.trans/

ML - October 17th

Arif Alikhanas called Hezbolah a Liberation Movement.    Hezbolah is on our state department terror lists.  They kidnap and kill Israelis.

I don't need any more information than that.

Thank you for clarifying that you are not an Islamic Sympathizer.

By the way, Obama said "Jerk Around" and "Gangbang" last night.   

Me - October 17th

If that were true then we would have a real problem. Unfortunately he didn't. Here's the long and short of it. Hearsay begat hearsay and finally was denied by Alikhanas himself. In fact he has unequivocally called Hezbollah a "terrorist organization". That's not a statement from someone who heard him say that. Those are his own words.

"That aside, though, and the two years of reports notwithstanding, I am delighted to be able to report that Arif Alikhan has publicly, clearly and unequivocally called Hezbollah exactly what it is, a terrorist organization. I applaud him for doing so, and I wish more American Muslim leaders would follow his lead on that score."

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/271019/obama-official-denies-calling-hezbollah-liberation-movement-says-it-terrorist-organiza

I hope that clears that up. 

On the other topic...ok wait. now you're against gangbangs?!?! You're going too far!! 

ML - October 17th

I'm enjoying the Zucker Spin Zone.

Me - October 17th

do i take that to mean that you stand corrected?  ;) 

ML - October 17th

No, take that to mean that the Obama adminstration appointed a Hezbollah sympathizer (who later "recanted"),  and a radical Islamist who blamed Israel for 9/11… and you are spinning it as no big deal.

I think it’s a HUGE deal.

 

Me - October 17th

I've sent you articles and statements that back up my "claim". Where can you show me anything about Alikhanas being a Hezbollah sympathizer that's anything more than hearsay?Regarding al-Marayati, I agreed that he was a poor selection. I do admit when bad choices are made. But you haven't answered me as to whether you think his selection was done by Obama.

This is a no spin zone. (thought you would appreciate that.... you know, make you feel at home on O'Reilly's couch)

ML - October 18th

Dear Mr. Zucker (note my formality):

We obviously see this situation very differently.   Al-Marayati… No Obama did not personally pick him, but his department did.   The hire reflects either 1) a lack of procedures to properly vet a candidate, or 2) a hire that was in compliance with their vetting system (which is more troubling).    The Alikhanas statement about Hezbollah being a Liberation movement is well known (of course not in MSNBC circles).  I'm sure if I dug deeply, I could find the actual transcript.   Even if its hearsay, that's enough for me (in court, people are convicted on hearsay alone).

Both these situations are two examples in a long line of Obama's Pro-Arab affiliations, mentoring, statements, associations, policies, and speeches.  I could go one by one, but I'm not going to convince you.  Obama even charged NASA with the responsibility of "muslim outreach".  NASA?

As the liberals say, let's agree to disagree.     In the meantime, enjoy this SNL poke at both sides….

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/obama-visits-biden-cold-open/1401439 

Me - October 18th

okaaaayyy.....

Not sure what to make of the "Mr. Zucker" thing. I reserve formality for people that are acquaintances or people at work that I don't really know at all. Am I not getting some Republican humor? We still good?

Re: Al-Marayati, I'll take what's behind door number 1, Bob. That was my point! They fucked up and I AGREE with you (enjoy it!). Al-Marayati was a terrible pick that, I believe, had zero input from the President.

Re: Alikhanas, I challenge you to find the (or any) transcript where he calls Hezbollah a liberation movement. If you find it then I will admit I was wrong. If you can't then I hope you will stop using this as a reason why you don't like Obama and admit that I am right. I'm sure you have many other, much more legitimate, reasons why you hate Obama.

I do not debate in order to be a pain in the ass, even though you may think I am. I do it because I enjoy it and to find the truth. Believe me. Some things you'll find out about me; I hate hypocrisy, I'm consistent and I don't lie. Also, I would never use MSNBC in a debate with you any more than, I would hope, you wouldn't use FOX as a source for your argument with me. You can see who I used. I always sited my sources.

BTW Hearsay shouldn't be enough for you. If one person were to start a rumor and the rumor spread, that doesn't make it true. And no one is legally convicted on hearsay. That's bullshit and you know it. Haven't you ever heard the line "Objection your Honor; hearsay"? Hearsay is is not allowed in a court of law. We have many lawyers in shul. I'm sure they'll verify that.

Turn on CSPAN (WOW that sounds nerdy!!) It's the Al Smith Dinner. Past ones have been very funny.
http://www.c-span.org/Campaign2012/Events/67th-Annual-Alfred-E-Smith-Memorial-Foundation-Dinner/10737435020/

Have a good night.

ML - October 18th

Mr. Zucker, of course we are all good!   I love debating politics, even when I'm 100% right and my opponent is 100% wrong.   Its good sport.   Like hunting deer with an AK-47.   Lopsided but fun.

I hope NASA is successful in both its mission back to the moon and its engagement with Muslims.

You really need to grow the beard back, btw.  Your leftist arguments sounded stronger w/ beard.

I will bookmark the Alikhanas transcript search until I have the bandwidth to waste time. 

Good Shabbos!

M.

P.S.  I took a close look at Obama's "vaunted" 18 tax cuts for small business.   They are all BS.   My 25 employee benefit from ZERO of the 18..   Just saying…

 

Me - October 18th

I will never understand why Republicans can never admit when they're wrong. I've shown you you're wrong on Alikhanas and you still won't admit the sky is blue. Here it is. Straight from the horses mouth saying "Hezbollah is a terrorist organization". No mincing words. No 'I don't agree with them', 'they do some good things'.... No hedging. Just plain English. He says they are terrorist plain and simple and you still hold on to your story that's based on nothing but hearsay. Come on man!!

Funny how you now bring up a different subject though, NASA. I'll admit I'm not a fan of NASA even though my brother went to space camp, went to space shuttle launchings, lives and breaths the shit. I was for killing the shuttle programs and was actually supportive of Bush's decision to kill it.

However, now I'm going to ask that you be consistent and not hypocritical. NASA's engagement with Muslims did not start with Obama. It started with your holy savior (no not Hashem), Ronald Reagan! Careful not to get too angry here. I can back it up. I found a source for you that, by your standards, should be unimpeachable. Debbie Schlussel herself!!

Reagan/Bush Used NASA for Muslim Outreach Before Obama

LOL!!! I will say here and now that the idea is stupid and worthless and Obama is a schmuck to put a dollar into it. I hope you will now admit that Obama was not the first to attempt this same worthless and stupid endeavor.
Remember, consistent and not hypocritical.

Sorry your employees didn't benefit from any of the small business tax breaks.

ML - October 18th

Jon, I'm totally kidding about me being right 100% of the time and you being wrong 0% of the time.  Its really more like 97% / 3%.  C'mon, my liberalish friend!  I'm starting to think you are GOP and just busting my chops.

BTW, when I was a Democrat I never admitted I was wrong either.

As I said, I will bookmark the Alikhanas until I can research fully.   He wouldn't be the first person to pull a 180 lie.   Debra Wasserman Schultz just pulled a doozy herself (re: Michael Oren). 

I stand 50% corrected on the Obama Nasa Muslim story.    In 1985, there actually was a Muslim astronaut.   That's not random outreach.  50% MAX!

See you at the 10 AM Minyan on Shabbos!

Me - October 18th

lol. I'll be there.